Taking on Google with Fathom Analytics and growing a course to $150k - Jack Ellis, Fathom

Jack Ellis is the co-founder of Fathom Analytics, the simple, privacy focused alternative to Google launched in 2018. In this episode we talk about taking on the behemoth that is Google, joining a project after it's started, how Fathom grew and how Jack b


Jack Ellis is the co-founder of Fathom Analytics, started with Paul Jarvis in 2019. Jack handles the technical side of the business, but isn't afraid to get on the mic on their podcast, Above Board, or send out some spicy tweets. Jack also runs the Serverless Laravel course, which he launched back in 2020. After this conversation Jack has turned into a true friend, speaking with me for several hours after, a genuinely nice chap. You’re going to want the same thing after listening to this pod. Jack talks with great wisdom on how to approach bootstrapping a SaaS company and taking on a huge incumbent.

➡️ Here's my course on starting a podcast in 2 hours or less (use "bites" for $10 off)

What we covered in this episode:

  • What is Fathom Analytics
  • Joining as a co-founder after the company was founded
  • How Fathom started
  • How did they know Fathom was going to work
  • What growth tactics did Fathom use to grow?
  • How did they convince people to pay for analytics?
  • The trade-off of free software
  • How do you compete in a market with a huge incumbent
  • Starting a medium competitor, Pico
  • Benefits of having a co-founder
  • Quitting a job for Jack's first side-project
  • Starting a course (Serverless Laravel) that made $150,000

Recommendations

Follow Jack

Follow Me

Sponsor - Part Time Tech Jobs

Thank you to my friend Charlie from Weekend Club for sponsoring this episode, with his new project Part Time Tech Jobs, which is a fantastic site for finding and posting, you guessed it, part time tech jobs
 
If you’re looking to transistion from a full-time role to indie hacking, finding a part time role might be just the thing for you to de-risk that transition. And on the other side, if you’re looking to hire great entrepreneurial talent without breaking the bank, this is where you should post.

So if you’re looking for a part time tech job, head to parttimetechjobs.co or if you’re looking for tech talent, use the code INDIEBITES for 80% off all featured posts.

Transcript
WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:01.482 --> 00:00:05.052 Jack: And at the time the company was doing the low $1,000. 00:00:05.152 --> 00:00:09.555 . And the growth was ridiculously slow, the other option for Paul was that 00:00:09.555 --> 00:00:11.055 he was going to close, fathom down. 00:00:11.727 --> 00:00:12.057 Hello. 00:00:12.117 --> 00:00:13.767 Um, welcome back to Indy bikes. 00:00:13.767 --> 00:00:17.384 The podcast arriving you stories of fellow indie hackers in 15 minutes or 00:00:17.384 --> 00:00:21.674 less today, I'm joined by Jack Ellis, who is the co-founder of fathom analytics. 00:00:21.854 --> 00:00:26.054 The simple privacy focused alternative to Google analytics launched in 2018. 00:00:26.324 --> 00:00:29.234 Now Jack handles the technical side of the business, but isn't afraid 00:00:29.234 --> 00:00:33.404 to get on the mic on their podcast, aboveboard or send out some spicy tweeze. 00:00:33.778 --> 00:00:36.808 JAG also runs a serverless Laravel course, which he launched 00:00:36.808 --> 00:00:39.088 back in 2020 to some success. 00:00:39.478 --> 00:00:42.358 After this conversation, Jack can stand into a true friend. 00:00:42.358 --> 00:00:46.408 We speak for several hours after the podcast, and he's genuinely a nice chap. 00:00:46.692 --> 00:00:49.782 Jack talks with great wisdom on his approach to bootstrapping 00:00:49.782 --> 00:00:53.292 a SAS company and taking on a huge incumbent like Google. 00:00:53.578 --> 00:00:56.248 Thank you to my friend, Charlie from weekend club for sponsoring 00:00:56.248 --> 00:01:00.028 this episode with his new project part-time tech jobs, which is a 00:01:00.028 --> 00:01:02.308 fantastic site for finding and posting. 00:01:02.338 --> 00:01:03.088 You guessed it. 00:01:03.298 --> 00:01:04.648 Part-time tech jobs. 00:01:04.918 --> 00:01:08.968 If you're looking to transition for a full-time role to indie hacking, finding 00:01:08.968 --> 00:01:11.038 a part-time role might just be for you. 00:01:11.248 --> 00:01:12.868 De-risk in that transition. 00:01:13.138 --> 00:01:15.748 And on the other side, if you're looking to hire great entrepreneurial 00:01:15.748 --> 00:01:18.838 talent without breaking the bank, this is where you should post. 00:01:19.041 --> 00:01:22.371 So, if you're looking for a part-time tech job, head to part-time tech 00:01:22.371 --> 00:01:26.001 jobs.co, or if you're looking for tech talent, use the code indie bites, all 00:01:26.001 --> 00:01:28.881 camps for 80% off all featured posts. 00:01:29.084 --> 00:01:33.074 Finally a little plug for my new podcast in core, showing you exactly how to 00:01:33.074 --> 00:01:36.944 make a podcast, just like indie bites in only two hours or less a week. 00:01:37.124 --> 00:01:39.734 So if you've been wanting to start a podcast, but haven't found the 00:01:39.734 --> 00:01:44.054 time, head to our podcast and use the code bites for $10 off. 00:01:44.274 --> 00:01:45.234 But that's enough for me. 00:01:45.324 --> 00:01:46.764 Let's get into this conversation. 00:01:48.493 --> 00:01:48.823 James: Jack. 00:01:48.823 --> 00:01:49.843 Welcome to the podcast. 00:01:49.843 --> 00:01:50.263 How are you doing? 00:01:50.597 --> 00:01:51.397 Jack: I am wonderful. 00:01:51.397 --> 00:01:52.837 You are a true professional. 00:01:53.577 --> 00:01:54.207 James: I love it. 00:01:54.237 --> 00:01:57.309 And I love it when I was speaking to people that have built, awesome 00:01:57.309 --> 00:01:59.432 businesses like you have with fathom. 00:01:59.432 --> 00:02:03.868 And when I was looking back into what Jack Ellis has done in the past is 00:02:03.898 --> 00:02:07.438 there's more to you than just running this privacy focused analytics platform. 00:02:07.438 --> 00:02:10.918 But what I'm also happy about is that I've got a fellow Brit on the mic 00:02:10.927 --> 00:02:13.383 which, which is always nice to me. 00:02:13.383 --> 00:02:16.713 And we can talk about stuff like Brexit and fuel prices or, 00:02:16.953 --> 00:02:18.213 or whatever else we want to. 00:02:18.720 --> 00:02:23.782 talk me through fathom what it is as brief as you can why Paul and Danny 00:02:23.782 --> 00:02:25.552 started it and what made you join? 00:02:25.552 --> 00:02:29.692 Because it wasn't something that you co founded or started yourself. 00:02:29.692 --> 00:02:31.462 You joined an existing project. 00:02:31.462 --> 00:02:36.202 And for someone like a lot of indie hackers, when they want to start 00:02:36.202 --> 00:02:40.102 their own project, it's usually their own idea or a group of 00:02:40.102 --> 00:02:41.662 people come together with an idea. 00:02:41.842 --> 00:02:45.292 But this was something you joined a little bit later, you went 50, 50. 00:02:45.472 --> 00:02:48.802 Was it hard to join in a project that had already started? 00:02:48.802 --> 00:02:50.252 And wasn't your own idea? 00:02:51.347 --> 00:02:53.957 Jack: Fathom started, it was Paul's idea on Twitter, right? 00:02:53.957 --> 00:02:55.997 He posted a screenshot of it. 00:02:55.997 --> 00:02:57.737 Wasn't privacy focused or privacy. 00:02:57.737 --> 00:02:58.187 First. 00:02:58.367 --> 00:03:02.297 He was just sick to death of how complex Google was and getting 00:03:02.297 --> 00:03:03.977 simple answers from analytics. 00:03:03.977 --> 00:03:05.057 You just couldn't do that. 00:03:05.477 --> 00:03:08.027 And he had this vision of how it could be so much better. 00:03:08.597 --> 00:03:12.407 And then he worked on an open source version version of fathom with Danny. 00:03:12.827 --> 00:03:16.217 And because Danny had some code from the past and they sort of, you know, 00:03:16.217 --> 00:03:20.207 work together, built this thing, the source repo was successful. 00:03:20.747 --> 00:03:24.077 And then I think Danny and Paul had a phone call put, they had a 00:03:24.077 --> 00:03:26.537 phone call right before me and Paul, because me and Paul were working on 00:03:26.537 --> 00:03:28.457 Pico, which was a medium competitor. 00:03:28.457 --> 00:03:30.938 And we had thousands of people on our waiting list. 00:03:30.994 --> 00:03:31.624 Very excited. 00:03:31.654 --> 00:03:32.674 They're very excited about that. 00:03:32.674 --> 00:03:35.644 That's a, I forgot about Pico until you mentioned it this morning, but 00:03:35.718 --> 00:03:38.688 we were working on Pico and put what a call with Danny on Skype. 00:03:38.718 --> 00:03:41.658 And then we had a call directly after, and Paul's like, Danny's 00:03:41.658 --> 00:03:43.458 saying that he's done with father. 00:03:44.568 --> 00:03:48.168 And so when I'm like, oh shit, you know, that's not good poops, you know, Paul's 00:03:48.168 --> 00:03:49.608 not a developer, Paul's a designer. 00:03:50.178 --> 00:03:51.978 . And now he's lost his developer. 00:03:52.668 --> 00:03:56.268 So we immediately get to talking about the idea of me coming on board. 00:03:56.268 --> 00:03:59.838 And at the time the company was doing the low $1,000. 00:03:59.938 --> 00:04:04.579 . And the growth was ridiculously slow, but you know, it was still enough to see that 00:04:04.579 --> 00:04:06.229 there was clearly product market fit. 00:04:06.619 --> 00:04:11.029 So we had this hard decision of do we keep doing Pico, which has thousands of 00:04:11.029 --> 00:04:15.129 people on the waiting list, but doesn't actually have any revenue or do I come 00:04:15.129 --> 00:04:19.989 on board and working it with Paul and Paul's written about this publicly, 00:04:19.989 --> 00:04:23.679 but the other option for Paul was that he was going to close, fathom down. 00:04:24.189 --> 00:04:26.739 So it was a case that we're going to work together on this, or it's going to be. 00:04:27.497 --> 00:04:31.667 And fathom grew very, very slowly up until we launched version 00:04:31.667 --> 00:04:34.277 two, which was a complete redo. 00:04:34.667 --> 00:04:37.817 And we launched on product hunt and it just blew up from there, kept on growing. 00:04:37.967 --> 00:04:40.037 We thought, oh, this is actually becoming something. 00:04:40.247 --> 00:04:40.877 James: That's interesting. 00:04:40.967 --> 00:04:45.257 And you said it when V2 launch did the product hunt launch and then it starts, 00:04:45.287 --> 00:04:47.267 started to grow quickly from that point. 00:04:47.717 --> 00:04:52.554 Can you think back to any of the inflection points in growth when you 00:04:52.554 --> 00:04:56.550 were like, yes, this is really working or maybe what you were doing apart from just 00:04:56.550 --> 00:04:58.680 having a great product for that growth, 00:04:58.899 --> 00:04:59.139 Jack: pose. 00:04:59.139 --> 00:05:00.879 Audience helped a bit to begin with. 00:05:00.879 --> 00:05:03.609 We still get a few people off of pool, but we were very conscious 00:05:03.609 --> 00:05:04.869 that that can't be the only funnel. 00:05:04.969 --> 00:05:07.939 Product hunt helped Twitter, but done a ton of stuff on Twitter. 00:05:07.939 --> 00:05:10.866 We're very active on Twitter, Our content, game's very active. 00:05:10.866 --> 00:05:12.726 We're very public about what we do. 00:05:12.966 --> 00:05:14.746 You version two was just better. 00:05:14.796 --> 00:05:15.906 I know what he said. 00:05:15.906 --> 00:05:19.356 Don't just say better software, but version two was just better. 00:05:19.356 --> 00:05:20.586 So you have a better product. 00:05:20.586 --> 00:05:22.356 You're going to get people that actually convert. 00:05:22.356 --> 00:05:25.356 It's not just about the traffic right before we had this dashboard. 00:05:26.256 --> 00:05:27.606 Really grossly simple. 00:05:27.606 --> 00:05:29.856 We didn't have countries browsers, that kind of thing. 00:05:30.066 --> 00:05:33.816 We didn't have anything like events or goals where suddenly we've got all 00:05:33.816 --> 00:05:35.196 this stuff and people got excited. 00:05:35.377 --> 00:05:38.913 James: Well, I'm interested to know how you've sort of tried to change 00:05:38.943 --> 00:05:44.373 people's perception on analytics and paying for analytics because so 00:05:44.373 --> 00:05:48.183 many people are so used to getting them on a six from free from Google, 00:05:48.273 --> 00:05:50.253 I think is a powerful product. 00:05:50.313 --> 00:05:55.366 Marketing teams literally run their whole, content machine based on the 00:05:55.366 --> 00:05:57.136 data that Google has given them. 00:05:57.136 --> 00:05:58.126 And that is free. 00:05:58.756 --> 00:06:02.896 So how did you start to convince people to pay for something that 00:06:02.956 --> 00:06:04.636 they could originally get for free? 00:06:06.036 --> 00:06:06.246 Jack: Yeah. 00:06:06.246 --> 00:06:09.156 So it's a mixture in our content and it's a mixture in general 00:06:09.366 --> 00:06:10.806 awareness of what's going on. 00:06:11.256 --> 00:06:14.716 People have learned that free is not free. 00:06:14.986 --> 00:06:16.666 There's some kind of trade off somewhere. 00:06:17.116 --> 00:06:20.024 And so the question is would you pay $14 a month for a company 00:06:20.024 --> 00:06:21.134 that isn't going to screw you? 00:06:21.134 --> 00:06:24.461 If your data isn't going to track your visitors around the web and is 00:06:24.461 --> 00:06:26.141 actually going to do the right thing. 00:06:26.511 --> 00:06:29.751 we're not under any kind of pressure from external investors, or we're 00:06:29.751 --> 00:06:31.161 not a publicly traded company. 00:06:31.821 --> 00:06:35.451 So when Facebook starts doing various questionable advertising 00:06:35.451 --> 00:06:36.711 things, what are they driven by? 00:06:36.861 --> 00:06:38.871 They're not driven by being good people. 00:06:38.871 --> 00:06:40.041 They're driven by profits. 00:06:40.091 --> 00:06:41.491 , you know, once you're publicly traded. 00:06:41.501 --> 00:06:45.581 And I talked about this in our podcast, you have challenges too. 00:06:45.791 --> 00:06:49.271 If you start doing the right thing, but it's not profitable, then you can 00:06:49.271 --> 00:06:52.685 be sued by shareholders So I think it's harder for big tech companies to 00:06:52.685 --> 00:06:54.545 do the right thing a lot of the time. 00:06:54.709 --> 00:06:57.829 or they're just idiots, like which one is they're either idiots or. 00:06:58.353 --> 00:07:01.473 Choose not to do the right thing, so fathom, obviously we care about 00:07:01.473 --> 00:07:06.093 profits, but we're not under any kind of pressure to do the wrong thing to think. 00:07:06.093 --> 00:07:09.333 Or maybe we can stop what a Google do, a stupid thing where they think 00:07:09.363 --> 00:07:10.623 they fingerprint your browser. 00:07:10.803 --> 00:07:13.911 They follow you around the web and they put you in this kind of group to target. 00:07:13.911 --> 00:07:16.461 You have adverse, and they think that that's better, not better. 00:07:16.791 --> 00:07:18.711 So they've just got all the, but they've got these pressures though. 00:07:18.711 --> 00:07:20.631 They have to do this because they've got these. 00:07:20.961 --> 00:07:25.131 If they suddenly drop their revenues, then the CEO is going to get sacked or, you 00:07:25.131 --> 00:07:26.751 know, people will start losing their jobs. 00:07:27.021 --> 00:07:28.281 We just don't have this. 00:07:28.492 --> 00:07:31.192 James: sort of answered my next question, which was about how do 00:07:31.192 --> 00:07:34.240 you go about tackling a product that has so much market share? 00:07:34.375 --> 00:07:38.905 If an indie hacker or an entrepreneur was thinking of creating a product 00:07:38.905 --> 00:07:42.304 that solves a problem where there is an absolute behemoth What would 00:07:42.304 --> 00:07:45.604 they have to do to cut out a little bit of that market share for them? 00:07:46.166 --> 00:07:48.446 Jack: Compete on areas that our company can't compete on. 00:07:48.594 --> 00:07:50.129 So take a look at Derek Roemer. 00:07:50.189 --> 00:07:52.649 What he's doing with savvy cow Calendly, can't provide the 00:07:52.649 --> 00:07:54.090 same attention that he can. 00:07:54.380 --> 00:07:55.880 You know, innovate on your product. 00:07:55.940 --> 00:07:58.370 Again, coming back to savvy, Cal, I think Savik has a great idea. 00:07:58.610 --> 00:08:00.890 He's innovating in areas that Calendly isn't. 00:08:01.100 --> 00:08:04.160 James: Let's move on then from fathom and talk a little bit about 00:08:04.160 --> 00:08:07.115 PK, because that is a product that I was really excited for. 00:08:07.115 --> 00:08:10.595 I medium competitor, fantastic medium and stipend ads everywhere 00:08:10.595 --> 00:08:12.095 and trying to monetize everything. 00:08:12.515 --> 00:08:15.605 And I was like, I really liked the writing style of medium or, or the 00:08:15.605 --> 00:08:17.405 writing experience, how it looks. 00:08:17.795 --> 00:08:21.545 And this was before I really started using ghost or knew what ghost 00:08:21.545 --> 00:08:23.724 was or or how guys had developed. 00:08:24.174 --> 00:08:29.304 But this was your first time working with Paul Paul Jarvis author of company of 00:08:29.399 --> 00:08:32.539 Jack: Oh, no second times first public time, I suppose. 00:08:32.549 --> 00:08:34.229 Well, we built a crypto. 00:08:34.259 --> 00:08:36.869 We built a kind of crypto product before experimenting with 00:08:36.869 --> 00:08:38.159 crypto technology beforehand. 00:08:38.489 --> 00:08:39.659 That was a joke project. 00:08:39.659 --> 00:08:42.449 And we worked on that together and that's how we kind of enjoyed working together. 00:08:43.459 --> 00:08:47.869 James: How did you meet him and ended up deciding to work 00:08:47.869 --> 00:08:49.009 together on, on something? 00:08:49.029 --> 00:08:53.659 Jack: So I was in BC for a holiday and I messaged Paul was always a 00:08:53.659 --> 00:08:54.859 part of Paul's course, actually. 00:08:54.859 --> 00:08:56.359 And I messaged him saying, whereabouts are you? 00:08:56.359 --> 00:09:00.049 And he's like, he just happened to be quite close to where I was living. 00:09:00.345 --> 00:09:03.345 we met for coffee and we just clicked on a bunch of stuff. 00:09:03.775 --> 00:09:05.545 And then we started Pico shortly after the Crip. 00:09:06.331 --> 00:09:09.283 James: Before working with it with Paul, you always really wanted a 00:09:09.283 --> 00:09:10.723 hundred percent ownership on something. 00:09:10.963 --> 00:09:14.543 I understand people that do you want that a hundred percent? 00:09:14.564 --> 00:09:18.614 But what changed and how have you found the benefits of having a K founder? 00:09:18.889 --> 00:09:21.199 Jack: Uh, It keeps you focused, keeps you grounded someone else to 00:09:21.199 --> 00:09:24.709 actually share the responsibility with being a solo founder sucks I 00:09:24.709 --> 00:09:27.889 mean, I'd worked all through the night till 5:00 AM full of sleep. 00:09:27.889 --> 00:09:28.819 Wake up, repeat. 00:09:29.059 --> 00:09:30.049 This was on rural Gainesville. 00:09:30.259 --> 00:09:32.869 I don't know if we talk about that, but just repeat and then you'd kind 00:09:32.869 --> 00:09:34.159 of get hung up on things for ages. 00:09:34.159 --> 00:09:35.179 You've got no one to sanity. 00:09:35.179 --> 00:09:35.719 Check you. 00:09:35.929 --> 00:09:38.329 Paul sanity checks me all the time and it always makes me laugh. 00:09:38.359 --> 00:09:41.679 People assume that he's not involved in that the tax stuff. 00:09:41.689 --> 00:09:43.339 He was very much involved in the textile. 00:09:43.639 --> 00:09:46.249 Paul sanity checks me and helps me through stuff all the time. 00:09:46.609 --> 00:09:48.949 I think you need to work with someone that compliments your skills. 00:09:48.949 --> 00:09:51.289 I mean enough, for example, Justin Jackson were transistor. 00:09:51.529 --> 00:09:53.029 John's an incredibly talented programmer. 00:09:53.029 --> 00:09:56.469 Justin's great at marketing so you have to find a co-founder that compliments you 00:09:56.469 --> 00:09:58.239 else just stay solo and just hire people, 00:09:59.189 --> 00:10:02.616 James: and so, so you say Pico is already built ready to go. 00:10:02.726 --> 00:10:08.266 You mentioned earlier in the episode about choosing to go on with fathom instead, 00:10:09.016 --> 00:10:13.090 and PK got acquired by ghost, and it's now a lovely little theme you can use. 00:10:13.090 --> 00:10:15.775 Tell me a little bit about how that acquisition came about. 00:10:15.869 --> 00:10:16.409 Jack: Oh, easy. 00:10:16.439 --> 00:10:17.339 Paul's friends with John. 00:10:17.729 --> 00:10:19.769 They were talking over text and that was it done? 00:10:21.169 --> 00:10:23.175 James: That is one way to sell a company. 00:10:23.625 --> 00:10:26.865 Uh, Jack, I'm interested in one of your first projects, raw gains, 00:10:26.895 --> 00:10:28.995 which you quit your job and started. 00:10:29.872 --> 00:10:31.762 Jack: I was making 20,000 pounds a year. 00:10:31.875 --> 00:10:37.296 I was 20 something years old and I quit my job to work on this full-time and 00:10:37.356 --> 00:10:40.776 I thought that I was going to quit in June and by January I'd have enough 00:10:40.776 --> 00:10:42.366 customers to start making some money. 00:10:42.366 --> 00:10:43.626 I thought it was gonna be that simple. 00:10:44.106 --> 00:10:46.326 I go, oh, I was bad back then. 00:10:46.326 --> 00:10:48.486 I thought I had, you know, I had all these plans. 00:10:48.486 --> 00:10:51.936 I drew out just, I think analysis paralysis. 00:10:51.936 --> 00:10:52.266 Right. 00:10:52.592 --> 00:10:55.322 I wasted more time on things that ultimately just didn't matter. 00:10:55.472 --> 00:10:58.562 What I should have been doing is focusing on a small set of features, shipping it, 00:10:58.562 --> 00:11:00.212 getting feedback, getting people excited. 00:11:00.392 --> 00:11:02.432 What I did instead was all I'm going to build the whole 00:11:02.432 --> 00:11:03.782 product before I launch it. 00:11:04.022 --> 00:11:04.792 I'm going to obsess. 00:11:04.812 --> 00:11:06.332 I'm going to spend ages on the design. 00:11:06.572 --> 00:11:07.922 I'm going to spend ages planning. 00:11:07.922 --> 00:11:12.062 The exact class structure of this PHP class is wasted time. 00:11:12.392 --> 00:11:17.082 And so I did everything wrong and I ended up shipping it late 2014, just to 00:11:17.082 --> 00:11:19.542 say that I shipped it, but it was crap. 00:11:19.572 --> 00:11:20.652 It was no, it wasn't. 00:11:20.652 --> 00:11:23.832 It was, the technology was incredible, but it doesn't matter 00:11:23.862 --> 00:11:25.212 because no one was excited about it. 00:11:25.212 --> 00:11:26.082 No one really cared. 00:11:26.082 --> 00:11:27.252 I didn't do the white stuff. 00:11:27.492 --> 00:11:29.502 I did the opposite of everything I do now. 00:11:30.072 --> 00:11:33.552 So if I was doing war games again, I would have, like I say, 00:11:33.582 --> 00:11:35.112 built small bits of it shipped. 00:11:35.112 --> 00:11:38.172 It got people, excited, got people involved, all kinds of 00:11:38.172 --> 00:11:39.162 things, but I didn't do that. 00:11:39.312 --> 00:11:42.072 And I failed and I made no money and I \cried. 00:11:42.687 --> 00:11:45.717 James: did You go back to, to get a job after that? 00:11:45.873 --> 00:11:46.403 Jack: No, no, no. 00:11:46.413 --> 00:11:48.993 From that point on, I was doing full-time consulting 00:11:49.065 --> 00:11:52.555 James: Was that up until the point in which she started Pico and father. 00:11:53.235 --> 00:11:53.505 Jack: Yeah. 00:11:53.505 --> 00:11:56.385 So the transition I'm a full-time consulting was when I launched my 00:11:56.385 --> 00:12:00.135 course, the course did like a stupid amount on the first day, of course 00:12:00.135 --> 00:12:05.535 it's done $150,000 since March, 2020, but it was that income that helped pad 00:12:05.565 --> 00:12:07.425 things for me and was like, oh, okay. 00:12:07.635 --> 00:12:10.095 Cause father, like I was making good money. 00:12:10.095 --> 00:12:10.305 Right. 00:12:10.305 --> 00:12:12.915 And leaving it for fathom, for fathom to pay the same money 00:12:12.915 --> 00:12:14.235 that I was making was hard. 00:12:14.605 --> 00:12:17.886 James: you've mentioned this again a couple of times, and it's really 00:12:17.886 --> 00:12:20.766 impressive what you did with your course, because after switching the 00:12:20.766 --> 00:12:24.891 entire fathom code base and go to PHB and two months, you thought you put 00:12:24.891 --> 00:12:26.271 all of this accumulated knowledge. 00:12:26.301 --> 00:12:28.347 Into your course serverless Laravel. 00:12:28.399 --> 00:12:31.189 what was your thinking behind putting all this work into a course? 00:12:31.442 --> 00:12:32.822 Jack: I was tweeting about what we were doing. 00:12:32.912 --> 00:12:33.392 People were into. 00:12:33.827 --> 00:12:34.967 I was getting questions. 00:12:34.967 --> 00:12:37.727 I was getting emails and I just thought, you know what? 00:12:37.787 --> 00:12:39.737 People are actually interested in this knowledge. 00:12:39.977 --> 00:12:42.587 I spent more time than anyone else run into more problems because 00:12:42.587 --> 00:12:43.847 of our scale than anyone else. 00:12:44.087 --> 00:12:45.017 I've got all this knowledge. 00:12:45.017 --> 00:12:46.217 I'm going to put it into a course. 00:12:46.907 --> 00:12:49.727 And I, at the beginning, I remember writing out my goals and all the goals 00:12:49.727 --> 00:12:52.877 were things I could control the goal was it doesn't matter if I don't sell. 00:12:53.597 --> 00:12:56.147 Courses, what matters is that, I mean, the eight you're going to learn a 00:12:56.147 --> 00:12:59.087 ton from this and I'll be ready for another course or for something else. 00:12:59.357 --> 00:13:01.517 And I'll actually get to help people, so it was serverless. 00:13:01.517 --> 00:13:02.657 Laravel that sold me. 00:13:02.657 --> 00:13:03.617 I need to make a course. 00:13:03.617 --> 00:13:08.002 I made, I started a course, got a waiting list on that, I shared tips publicly. 00:13:08.002 --> 00:13:09.352 I shared what I was working on. 00:13:09.622 --> 00:13:11.962 I kept on storytelling because I share what I do. 00:13:12.292 --> 00:13:15.322 Like my goal on Twitter is to try, obviously I do a few shit posts 00:13:15.322 --> 00:13:18.382 here and there, but my goal on Twitter is to help people is to 00:13:18.592 --> 00:13:20.032 help them improve their lives. 00:13:20.092 --> 00:13:21.352 And I can't help everyone. 00:13:21.352 --> 00:13:23.562 People are, no people are smarter than me and everything else, but 00:13:23.572 --> 00:13:24.802 I can help a group of people. 00:13:25.252 --> 00:13:25.972 And that's all I did. 00:13:25.972 --> 00:13:28.672 And then more hype got people up for the course on, cause it was good. 00:13:28.672 --> 00:13:29.482 It was a good course. 00:13:29.932 --> 00:13:31.020 And then people bought it. 00:13:31.561 --> 00:13:33.301 James: did he make the course? 00:13:33.328 --> 00:13:34.858 was it just loom videos? 00:13:34.958 --> 00:13:36.668 Jack: Oh, I can't even remember what I used. 00:13:36.668 --> 00:13:38.378 I used that one that all people use. 00:13:38.438 --> 00:13:38.738 What's it? 00:13:38.927 --> 00:13:39.647 James: ScreenFlow. 00:13:39.744 --> 00:13:42.924 Jack: or ScreenFlow that said, yeah, I use ScreenFlow and then I just kept 00:13:42.924 --> 00:13:45.414 on promoting it throughout the year. 00:13:45.414 --> 00:13:48.264 And like I said, it's done $150,000, which is stupid. 00:13:51.168 --> 00:13:51.468 James: Jack. 00:13:51.498 --> 00:13:53.658 This has been an absolutely marvelous conversation. 00:13:53.658 --> 00:13:56.148 We've covered a lot of ground, but at the end of every episode, 00:13:56.148 --> 00:13:57.978 I asked for three recommendations. 00:13:58.248 --> 00:14:00.828 A book a podcast and an Indiana co-publisher follow 00:14:00.858 --> 00:14:01.998 or that you're inspired by 00:14:02.486 --> 00:14:07.126 Jack: the book that really shook me was seven habits of highly effective people. 00:14:07.126 --> 00:14:11.317 Huberman lab is a really good podcast as a neurology, Stanford, and what, it 00:14:11.317 --> 00:14:12.727 just gives all the content for free. 00:14:13.117 --> 00:14:14.197 And then you say indie hacker. 00:14:14.454 --> 00:14:14.994 None. 00:14:15.354 --> 00:14:17.004 I don't care about indie hackers. 00:14:17.004 --> 00:14:17.784 I don't have heroes. 00:14:17.784 --> 00:14:20.304 I don't have groups that I have alliances with. 00:14:20.544 --> 00:14:24.114 I look at individual traits and I try to take traits that I like 00:14:24.114 --> 00:14:25.104 and implement them in my life. 00:14:25.104 --> 00:14:29.334 So James you, for example, I very much admire how particularly 00:14:29.334 --> 00:14:30.594 organized you worked for this episode. 00:14:30.624 --> 00:14:34.224 I haven't seen prep like that before, so I don't say, oh, James is amazing. 00:14:34.224 --> 00:14:36.204 I say, oh, well, this thing that James does is amazing. 00:14:36.234 --> 00:14:37.734 So like, I respect you for that. 00:14:38.334 --> 00:14:38.724 James: Data. 00:14:38.754 --> 00:14:40.074 I really appreciate that. 00:14:40.074 --> 00:14:42.804 And throughout the episode, we've had a few people mentioned 00:14:42.804 --> 00:14:44.124 too, who were doing good things. 00:14:44.124 --> 00:14:45.984 So, appreciate the honesty. 00:14:46.013 --> 00:14:48.503 The apps that you wonderful recommendations. 00:14:48.863 --> 00:14:51.083 Thank you jack for joining me on indie bites 00:14:51.403 --> 00:14:51.823 Jack: Thank you. 00:14:52.342 --> 00:14:56.392 Thank you for listening to this episode with Jack Ellis, the co-founder of fathom 00:14:56.422 --> 00:15:00.352 analytics, all the links to everything we discussed in this episode will be 00:15:00.352 --> 00:15:02.272 in the show notes or a bites diaphragm. 00:15:02.692 --> 00:15:05.422 If you'd like to support me on my journey, becoming a full-time 00:15:05.422 --> 00:15:08.482 indie hacker, you're doing exactly that by listening to this pod. 00:15:08.782 --> 00:15:09.532 But I'd love it. 00:15:09.532 --> 00:15:11.722 If you just checked out my new course, just to give me 00:15:11.722 --> 00:15:13.552 feedback so I can make it better. 00:15:13.912 --> 00:15:14.812 But that's all for me. 00:15:14.932 --> 00:15:15.742 See you next week.